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Dangerous - Unsustainable - Unstable

Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem.

The Unsustainable Green Transition | Simon Michaux

Planet: Critical 3.28K subscribers

7,635 views Apr 19, 2023 #climatecrisis #minerals #politicalcrisis

You can’t go green without going small. Our fossil-fuelled economy is destabilising the planet. But a renewable economy might not be much better. Simon Michaux and his team at the Geological Survey of Finland have been researching how much minerals and materials we have on earth to build our renewable energy. They’ve found that we simply do not have enough—and mining for those materials would bears a huge environmental cost. On this episode, Simon walks us through the research, the possible outcomes from calculated energy contraction to collapse, what policymakers are doing with this information, and how the geopolitics of the US-China proxy war could make the green transition impossible for the West.

00:00 Intro

02:25 The Minerals Shortage

06:24 Ideology vs Reality

07:59 The Mining Problem

13:10 The Energy Problem

19:54 Are policy makers listening?

23:34 Renewables are Underperforming

32:40 The Energy Storage Problem

37:53 The Battery Problem

43:20 Engineering society to cope with variable power

48:08 Dangerous dependence on US and China

52:06 Who blew up the Nord Stream pipeline?

58:35 The Currency War

01:00:34 US vs EU

01:06:56 The Resource Balanced Economy

01:15:19 Shaping Reality With Stories

01:19:02 Four Paradigms of Future Society

01:24:39 Shrinking the Technosphere

01:29:32 Who would you like to platform?


the energy that goes into a biological organism defines its size and complexity

0:05 reduce that energy which is what's about to happen to us the size of the organism and the complexity must reduce

0:16 hello and welcome to Planet critical the podcast for a world in crisis my name is Rachel Donald I'm a lecturer a climate

0:23 corruption reporter and your host every week I interview experts who are battling to save our planet my guests

0:29 are scientists politicians academics journalists and activists they explain the complexities of the energy economic

0:37 and political crises that we face today revealing what's really going on and what they think needs to be done

0:43 this is a critical time for our planet it demands critical thinking click the

0:48 Subscribe button now and go to to learn more my guest this week is Simon Michelle Simon

0:54 is an associate professor at the Geological Survey of Finland and for years he's been researching the minerals crisis the fact that we just don't have

1:01 enough minerals and materials in the Earth's crust to develop a fully renewable economy Simon's work shows

1:08 that if we want a livable future we're going to have to reduce our energy demands our material demands and live

1:13 smaller simpler lives

in the year and a half since we've spoken he explains the

1:24 mineral shortage for those of you who haven't heard the first episode he then discusses the mining problem looking at

1:29 the fiscal structures that will make a renewable economy very difficult he walks us through that Renewables are

1:34 underperforming and discusses the battery problem he then explains how to engineer a society that is livable and

1:40 sustainable for the future introducing us to a concept he's been working on called the resource balanced economy he

1:45 also takes a little detour to discuss who blew up the Nordstrom pipeline which is a fascinating analysis of how the

1:51 mineral and energy crisis is playing into geopolitics around the world I hope you all enjoyed the episode if you do

1:57 please share it far and wide

yes before we talk about the evolution yep could you give a two-minute summary for anybody that had

2:47 doesn't yet understand what the problem is with our minerals and our materials okay all right so my name is Simon

2:53 Michelle I'm an associate professor of the Geological Survey of Finland last couple of years I have been tracking

2:59 information and data in the industrial system to understand not only fossil fuels like

3:05 what does fossil fuels do for us now but our ability to transfer

3:11 and phase out those fossil fuels by applying the plan that we call the green

3:16 transition and what I have found is this problem is actually much much larger than first

3:23 understood and that a lot of the very Basics have not been done by our policy

3:30 leaders they have just been talking in vague platitudes without actually doing the actual math

3:36 of the practicalities of what they're proposing one of the outcomes I have found is that uh

3:43 the uh ability for us to actually deliver the number of electric vehicles

3:48 their batteries solar panels wind turbines has serious mineral shortfalls

3:54 not only in production now but also our industrial manufacturing capacity that

3:59 is available in China that's also too small and our reserves and our resources

4:06 and the resources Under the Sea are all not enough

4:12 right and uh and so yeah and so so we've got a fundamental problem and the way

4:17 out of it is just to make a different plan but that very very basic solution seems

4:22 to be too much for a lot of our policy makers at the moment and so there's a lot of hand ringing going on

4:28 so what you're saying is that we have a fossil fuel economy right now

4:33 um and as the listeners of the show will know if also feel very energy dense incredible fuel

4:39 um we sort of waste a lot of it um because it's just so abundant and we

4:44 cannot substitute that fossil fuel economy within a renewable economy because we're lacking the minerals and the materials to do so yes and uh so but

4:53 even if we had those materials we actually don't have the time to bring it online and now we've also got the

5:00 problems we don't have the money either boom so they've really made sure to make the

5:06 worst possible mess this are possible you know um

5:12 some very very unfortunate problem solving has been used where everyone is assuming someone

5:19 else's somewhere has actually already done this and everything's fine yeah everyone's referencing everyone else in

5:27 a Hall of Mirrors with the understanding that they've not actually looked at actually going and

5:33 phasing at fossil fuels because it's so easy to keep using it and so it is it's

5:38 like an environmentalist saying we don't want mining but then goes down to the shop and buys

5:44 a computer yeah right that has actually been manufactured on the other side of the planet

5:50 using mining methods that you would think that are not only uh unethical but they're actually we

5:56 would consider them illegal that's what the situation we have found ourselves in

6:02 and it it is remarkable uh it's like we've got a series of blind spots as a culture

6:09 and uh and so it's there's more than one and one of those blind spots is we tend

6:15 to believe our own yeah and that and that is at all levels but it's

6:21 especially at the policy making level well what what is the alternative I mean

Ideology vs Reality

6:26 if we live in like a growth obsessed system and success and development is measured by growth then to start talking

6:32 about D growth the sort of antithetical to the whole project well the basic problem is is last 50

6:40 years we've used ideology to solve all their problems yeah right our currency

6:45 for example is now what's called Fiat it's virtual if we want to balance our budget we just print more money it's

6:50 been this way since the early 1970s right and for that reason

6:56 we have become untethered from reality as the virtual Financial world is where we believe reality is yeah

7:05 so meanwhile back at the Batcave reality is now starting to impose itself

7:10 yeah so here we are putting it the virtual Financial worlds where we

7:16 think reality is yeah yes yeah I mean certainly we see it uh given I mean

7:22 you'll be able to speak more on this than I can but you know the obsession with Net Zero policies is if emissions that go out to the sky if they're

7:28 balanced on some Digital Book in some way then it's as if they don't actually exist in the atmosphere as if they you

7:35 know the bio as if the biosphere is digital in some way as well and can be deleted like a series of zeros and ones

7:42 so what I've come to the this all comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding of the Commodities industry right we

7:49 believe like the last I don't know 100 years our technology has developed in like a a two to four year cycle

7:56 where um enable or arise and then someone will go out and they'll invent a technology and that'll change the world

The Mining Problem

8:02 and the point from having the idea to actually getting it to Market in the private sector seems to be around two to

8:09 four years not not always but but the Commodities sector takes 20 years to open a single mine

8:16 right right so it happens much slower and the innovation in the commodity

8:21 sector does tend to happen in very small increments and oil and gas is different

8:27 because a lot of money goes into it but but in the mining industry the actual science behind mining hasn't

8:33 changed much since the 20s yeah right and and so the engineering has changed as we've sort of gone along but the

8:39 basic principle flotation crushing grinding the last Innovation with someone invented the hydrocyclone in

8:45 1920. uh and and so and and we've also got the

8:51 problem where uh um things are actually being shut down where

8:56 we've we've gone for the highest grade deposits first and you end up with the lowest grade deposits later and we're

9:03 using the same basic formula for the industry to actually operate and that

9:09 has happened all the way along and yeah when you see a first grade deposit in a

9:14 low grade deposit does that mean sort of the quality of minerals that are being mined yeah so not only is it the grade

9:20 so so for every let's say ton of all how much metal do you have in it and so when

9:25 I started my career in say the mid 90s uh the cutoff grade for copper was about

9:30 two or three percent and below that we didn't bother it wasn't economic now the cutoff grade or cut off grades for

9:37 feasibility studies that have actually Taken part off is 0.1 percent hang on point one percent of a mineral within

9:43 yeah in a deposit of ores yeah yeah that's a crazy amount of Destruction for

9:49 for very little yes let's say you had like a um a gold ring

9:55 on your finger right that gold ring has three tons of waste somewhere on a

10:00 mining dump somewhere oh my God right so this this is the this is the thing so we've gone from say two or three percent

10:07 to point one percent in the space of my career you know one person

10:12 which is you know which is what 28 years 25 years whatever it is and so

10:19 yeah and and so the other problem is the minerals themselves that we need to

10:25 what's good we need to what's called liberated liberate from The Rock so with a little particles metal we want

10:30 them to be separate so we can actually then pull them out but if the little drains of minerals are really small

10:38 right the smaller you go the more energy you've got to import in grinding and it goes up exponentially it's not a linear

10:45 relationship it's exponential so to grind from say uh when my career started

10:50 closing science year conventional copper plant was around 150 micron what does that mean uh so you're going

10:56 to take the rock then we're going to crush it and then grind it so most of what you've crushed and grind is smaller

11:02 than 150 microns in size right and so so imagine you have like a giant big pile of particles and

11:10 then we're going to put it through what's called a flotation plant which actually uses a chemical or

11:15 physical difference to pull out the metals and so what we're doing is copper

11:20 for example is what's called hydrophobic it does not like water so you put it into water and then you put bubbles in

11:27 it lots of bubbles say like big say in your washing up and as the bubbles rise through that a copper particle go oh

11:34 there's a there's a pocket of air and it'll want to stick to that pocket of air more than it wants to stay in the water and so that Rose to the top and

11:42 you have what's called a frothbid scrape the froth bit off and you've

11:47 concentrated it to about 25 copper so and so and but then you've got to

11:55 take that and then put that in a smelter yeah which will then refine it down and and then uh to the point where you get

12:01 99.99 pure copper in a refining circuit on the other side so so that that's

12:07 that's what they're doing so but if you've got to grind down to 150 micron right that's x amount of power but if

12:14 you've now got to grind down to 10 micron that's not a linear relationship you've got this exponential curve called the

12:20 hooky energy relationship so so vastly more energy is required to go finer and what we've and what we're

12:28 now tackling is is deposits that are very disseminated and small grained so we've need much much more energy and

12:34 much much more potable water consumed to actually extract a unit of

12:39 metal compared to say 30 years ago right so the problem is there aren't

12:45 enough reserves to make the transition the reserves that we do have are of a lower quality the energy cost to get the

12:51 materials out of those reserves that we would need and to refine them it would also be higher and all in the time when

12:57 we are running out of the fuel that we currently use to run our economy that we would need to also build everything for

13:04 the renewable transition so it seems like as uh there's another problem again there's another there's another problem

The Energy Problem

13:11 again our mining system at the moment is heavily dependent on fossil fuels yeah so what we do is we send like a gas

13:18 pipeline out to the middle of nowhere to a power plant that generates a lot of electricity and that electricity runs

13:24 some of the machines and you have a diesel truck and shovel Fleet to actually bring in the ore from the open pit

13:30 right and and so we're not mining with solar panels and wind turbines

13:36 when we do shit's gonna get real what does that mean uh a mine is

13:42 actually based around uh an economic feasibility is it economically viable to do

13:49 you know the the whole it's it's a very very well organized economic business model based on what's

13:55 there right and at the moment the cutoff grade associated with what is economically viable is associated with

14:02 the mining costs and power is a big cost right so if that

14:08 power triples or or is now 10 times what it was before for one reason or another

14:14 then what is previously economic is no longer economic so costs are going to go up what about

14:21 the fact that uh renewable energy is getting progressively cheaper at one point is it gonna get cheaper than

14:27 fossil fuels and then so so hang on it's getting cheaper when it's still a small system

14:32 but but if it can be shown that we don't have enough minerals in the ground to make a replacement system we will hit a

14:40 asymptote in the market where all of a sudden there's now scarcity of Metal Supply

14:45 and the and the systems you want to use are no longer available on the market so that cheap price cannot stay cheap it's

14:53 a temporary situation it's a situation while while we have metal to uh to

15:00 supply things are fine right but when we actually want to ramp up and actually sort of start doing this


Allah knows best. (All things.)

Quran 18:109:

SAY: "If all the sea were ink for my Sustainer's words, the sea would indeed be exhausted ere my Sustainer's words are exhausted! And [thus it would be] if we were to add to it sea upon sea."

My God.


Astafillurallah. "I am nothing". -> "Be nice".

(A good saying (zikr/dikr) - (upon waking but also any time) : Al hamdu lillahi lathee afanifi jasadi wa radda A'layya ruhi wa athini lee bi dhikrih ("All priase is for Allah who restored me to health and returned my soul and has allowed me to remember Him").

When one of you awakens, he should recite the following du’a:

Alhamdulillahil ladhi radda ‘alayya ruhi wa ‘afani fi jasadi wa adhina li bidhikrihi’


15:06 surreal um then we've got a problem so when I say stuffs [s**t's] going to get real is

15:11 when the mining industry now has to run in a situation where it is on non-fossil fuel systems only

15:18 right uh um the the manufacturing supply chain at the moment is only conceptual and we just haven't thought it through

15:25 that fossil fuels are a hidden subsidy for everything take that away you've now got a hidden penalty

15:31 and I think a lot of Mining and a lot of manufacture will just simply stop

15:37 right right and that's just you know what do you do and then I

15:45 imagine it becomes a bit of a sort of descending spiral then as as well in that you've got you've got mining that

15:51 stops and and also I think it's worth putting out at this point that um for all the advocate of a

15:58 transition like there's lots of environmental discussions and problems around Mining and the excesses of Mining and the fact that we do not prioritize

16:04 our resource use for example you know digging at Gold producing three tons of waste so that it can go on somebody's

16:10 finger um but if we're in a position where we don't have fossil fuels to do the work and then mining progressively shuts down

16:16 then you can sort of kiss goodbye to any dream of uh increasingly expansive renewable economy yeah so what what


16:24 up happening is uh it moves out of an economic pre-market Paradigm into a

16:29 strategic asset Paradigm because fossil fuels are going and we do need to actually the only plan

16:36 B we have is at the moment wind turbine solar panels and EVS we don't have a technology somewhere else and we can't

16:43 wait anymore right so the green transition will happen what I'm saying

16:48 is it will be much much smaller than we think and so entering into a world of a

16:53 energy contraction like a Sharp Energy contraction and we're just not prepared for it

17:00 at the moment uh and

17:05 there's going to be a reordering and a revaluing of society and and and and so...

just accept the fact that things are variable we're very used to the idea of flicking the switch and there it is

45:27 um like computers for example might run on a buffer for a period of time but when it shuts down it's got a wait

45:34 till power comes again and until then you can't have your computer it might be something like that what that looks like

45:40 I don't know and this is not this is not necessarily uncommon as well like we are very very spoiled in the west quote

45:46 unquote uh South Africa plenty of ruling like daily rolling blackouts to manage the the energy grip like this is how

45:53 some countries survive yep that's right and we all think that's not our problem

45:58 I can see uh um difficulties on multiple fronts here gone

46:04 so ciety at the moment for example is very used to like a just-in-time supply grid

46:10 and it's economic for the example I like to use is in Edinburgh they go and fish for

46:17 salmon in the sea right so the fishermen who go and fish the salmon

46:22 they get this lovely sermon what do they do they put it on a boat and send it to Vietnam in Vietnam it's put in a tin

46:28 they tend to put on another ship and brought back to Edinburgh important Supermarket so the fishermen who fish

46:33 for the salmon when they buy food for their for their families they go to the supermarket and they buy these tins of salmon

46:39 they could go down to a fish market buy fresh salmon and use that but that's not what they do

46:46 right and it's economic to do it makes economic sense to do that because energy is so cheap it's irrelevant yeah

46:53 so so we're going to start managing our energy and our material consumption like

46:59 we manage our money we are damn careful with our money and I think it's going to become something

47:05 like that okay okay so we are looking at energy shortages a decline in energy that is

47:11 available a decline in time when energy is available we're looking at a big energy contraction wasn't it you you

47:18 have the stat that we are currently at a 19 gigawatt society and we need to go

47:23 down to a five gigawatts Society oh I think Nate Hagan's uh uh had that one I agree he had the 19

47:30 terawatt 19 terawatt society and he said we need to go to a 10 terawatt Society I

47:36 laughed at him so there's probably going to be two maybe five if we're lucky right so because here's the thing it

47:43 would be different if we started 40 years ago and we slowly organized things over time but we've done nothing

47:49 one percent of the electric vehicle of the global Fleet of vehicles is electric vehicles that's at 1.1 percent

47:56 right and renewable energy is still about four or five percent of the primary energy pie we've done

48:02 nothing right so right so what that means is the the whole non-fossil fuel

Dangerous dependence on US and China

48:09 system hasn't been built yet yeah we just we just haven't done it yet and

48:15 things are about to go seriously in elastic economically we I I reckon oh

48:21 well it's an opinion right but by the end of this year we could find ourselves in a kinetic

48:28 shooting wall East versus West as in Russia and China versus everyone

48:33 else now ethics aside we are dependent on both of those countries wherever we

48:39 actually need and so we've allowed ourselves to be in a conflict without making ourselves

48:44 self-sufficient first and what that means we want to buy

48:51 uh I don't know 100 million electric vehicles and say 10 000 wind turbines

48:56 where does that all come from China who makes it stuff China who does the mining China

49:02 right right um we don't have the money now but be nice to us hang on no no that's not going to work either uh and

49:09 so this stuff's not going to be available on the market yeah and and so we're going to have like a step down

49:15 even if we got serious and said right we now want 10 000 wind turbines the time it would take the Chinese to deliver on

49:22 that is is years it takes time to make this stuff they've only got so much capacity to start

49:28 pumping stuff out and what if we're not if we're not going to get along they're not going to give it to us absolutely what about our

49:36 engineering new home and our industrial manufacturing capacity okay sure so we have to develop a local

49:42 capacity in the British Isles right across the British Isles you have

49:48 a history of mining but mining is considered dirty and filthy and unenvironmental you don't do mining

49:54 anymore you depend on it for somewhere else how long

49:59 how long would it take for you to establish a mining industry in the British Isles

50:05 again and so well if you got serious you're talking to 10 15 20 years so it takes that long to build this

50:11 stuff yeah on top of that now you've got to have the ability to smelt the stuff into Metals at the moment we

50:18 get the Chinese as all that how long would it take to build the smelters again 15 years maybe

50:23 and then on top of that so you've got a lot of manufacturing capability in the UK and in fact there is a plan on

50:31 putting forward that um Finland what's the size of the circular economy that could be right across the Nordic

50:37 Frontier countries but we need a dance part and I'm proposing the UK is that dance partner

50:43 so the Nordic Frontier can tie up the one end of the value chain from mining

50:48 to chemicals that's refining chemicals metals but we don't have any manufacturing capacity

50:54 right the UK has a manufacturing capacity but you have shut down and and

51:00 atrophied your resource sector right so we can so that we we can

51:06 actually take up one end and you take up the other end and we do business right and now that now that now that you're outside the EU you're actually easier to

51:13 deal with right right so I think that's the first

51:18 time anybody said that sentence ever well okay look I've been burned at the stake for Less so we'll see how that

51:24 goes um so all right but uh yeah and so it will

51:32 take time if if the UK decides to get real yeah and and actually sort of build its own

51:39 capability we're talking years 15 maybe 20 years maybe more

51:45 things are about to get real between the west and the east in the next few months

51:51 right so it's so we're down to months and and we tend to do stupid stuff like we throw economic sanctions around

51:58 and I don't believe there are any good guys in that conversation we're all doing dodgy stuff all of us

Who blew up the Nord Stream pipeline?

52:06 who blew up the north stream pipeline who indeed asking for a friend because

52:13 whoever whoever did that they've guaranteed that Europe is now in a

52:19 situation where it must be committed to a military action that it cannot actually win

52:25 we have not maintained our military competency in terms of number of units

52:31 on the ground number of Tanks number of planes that the Ukraine war has emptied

52:37 the stockpiles of all their consumables right across Europe and you can see that because people are now reluctant to send

52:43 more stuff in and when they're sending stuff in they're sending it in like we're going to send 12 tanks

52:50 12 tanks marvelous good one guys

52:56 right now I know nothing about the the conflicts in Ukraine essentially but

53:01 apart from stuff on Twitter but let's devolve a little bit because I mean last I saw Putin was taking trunk uh trunks

53:09 tanks I have museums to put them at the front line because the war is not going well I mean he thought it would be done

53:15 by now where what I eat a year into this now I think there's a lot of that

53:20 were being fed from official sources and we actually don't know what's really going on yeah

53:26 numbers on the ground are the Russians losing are they taking casualties question do they care Russians

53:34 um so the ukrainians had a fleet of something like 3 000 armored vehicles

53:41 right they're down to something like three or four hundred right and and so the Russians are

53:47 sending in several battalions of new troops that are coming in and even if they're dodgy stuff from museums that

53:53 are all rusty in in your Soviet era of stuff uh sending 12 tanks when they've

53:59 lost 19 they've lost two and a half thousand it's not going to change the calculus

54:06 it's it's it's like it's like it's a war that everyone does take very seriously

54:13 yeah and and they want to fight to the last Ukrainian but they won't actually commit themselves

54:18 um there's no airstrikes going on for example but I thought that was because of the

54:24 whole fear of like really NATO getting involved and I thought the whole thing with the Nordstrom pipeline was that it

54:30 was the United States government that blew that up yeah well that that is my information too yeah um that um and

54:37 that's been passed to me from the American sector that they believe yes it was the Americans not only that that they would they didn't do that with

54:43 Congressional um oversight and they've is actually an active economic Warfare against their own Ally

54:49 and what I'm hearing in Germany is is there's a very internal discussion about who our allies really are

54:57 um but there was a partner company a partner country in there too it was either Poland or Norway

55:03 and so uh the the dodgy dodgy dodgy dodgy because it looks to me sorry but

55:09 it looks to me that essentially that move was in order to sort of like

55:15 take and maintain energy dominance because it's the United States that is now like rewriting the natural gas roots

55:22 and like making sure that and that Europe has got enough and essentially in debting Europe in some way

55:28 um and making them rely on the yeah the energy streams that they they um now depend on now that the Russian

55:34 energy stream is out of the picture Europe very much depends on the United States for energy Supply is that not correct

55:40 so there there's actually more to that story I'm just going to pull up the actual numbers here so the gas industry

55:46 if we were to actually look at in terms of production versus consumption of gas

55:51 all countries can dominate the gas industry they are Russia China in the

55:57 United States and Iran right but those big countries of production also have to be the biggest

56:03 consumers right so uh what can I actually bring and they also have the biggest reserves

56:09 too this I believe this is a function of peak oil being in November 2018. that's

there's this General sort of lack of

1:04:55 reality uh um with with all of these things and I think we're in a process that we are

1:05:04 being smacked down so so he coil was a thing that was projected to destroy Society

1:05:11 so it's possible that peak oil is November 2018. yeah

1:05:17 and when you actually look at the chart it it's still going down I don't think it's going to come back yeah but

1:05:24 peak oil was associated with our ability to have gasoline and petrol

1:05:29 they're now making gasoline in the United States out of gas so 48 of the gasoline coming out of the

1:05:36 United States is sourced from natural gas and biofuels so what that means is a

1:05:42 normal conception of what peak oil actually is now has to be re-looked at and we're using the gas industry to prop

1:05:48 up the oil industry yeah now calorifically that's that's not terribly bright

1:05:54 uh because you know oil was much richer than gas uh calorifically so so your

1:06:00 energy return on energy invested you'll be lower and when they're building in a very very

1:06:06 structural inefficiency into the gas industry but they're holding it together and so it's possible our total liquids

1:06:12 consumption could beat the 2018 record but oil

1:06:18 oil has contracted and I don't think it's coming back yeah yeah yeah nobody

1:06:23 expects who thinks it's coming back yeah um all right so

1:06:29 we're in a pretty bad way um we don't have any stuff yeah that's

1:06:35 it we don't have enough stuff we don't have enough capacity we don't have very many friends um and even for those of us living in

1:06:41 this part of the world used to lives of huge luxury those luxuries are going to go on rightly so because they're built off the backs of exploitation and

1:06:47 extraction um but our policy makers are sort of seemingly blind to what's going on

1:06:53 because it would demanding a massive overhaul of the status quo however I understand that you are working on a

The Resource Balanced Economy

1:06:59 model called the resource balanced economy to present to them could you walk us through that right so the

1:07:05 Swedish government they asked me directly and says Okay

1:07:10 um could you because I'm part of a group called The circular economy Solutions within the Geological Survey and so

1:07:17 we've got our hands on what we call the circular economy and it says could you redesign that circular economy in

1:07:22 context of your work that is we're about to lose fossil fuels we don't have enough resources to do the green

1:07:28 transition Etc what do we do and so

1:07:33 I signed it's futile to try and sort of dictate what the future will be like I said right so what I've done is

1:07:41 try to understand the boundary conditions of what the future might be and to

1:07:47 understand where we put our effort now where this came from are you this

1:07:53 might make you laugh um I hope she's laughing already look at that so I used to work on an organic farm as

1:08:00 a laborer and so it's learning how to grow food and you